tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3967694277763110629.post1120743979615641467..comments2024-03-28T07:16:05.720-07:00Comments on Experience Points: A Frustrating NarrativeJorge Alborhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04857765716032886965noreply@blogger.comBlogger12125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3967694277763110629.post-37324602263249497352009-02-24T12:36:00.000-08:002009-02-24T12:36:00.000-08:00I do feel similarly! In 1990 I was so good at gam...I do feel similarly! In 1990 I was so good at games that I was in the state semi-finals of the Nintendo World Championship up on stage with 3 jumbotron-style screens projecting the gameplay of me and my two other competitors to an auditorium full of people. Now, I get my ass handed to me by twelve year olds online (Although, perhaps having your life mirror a bad Fred Savage movie like "The Wizard" is nothing to be too proud of). Anyway, I spend most of my gaming time these days playing Shin Megami Tensei games which are challenging not because of gameplay, but because they are such a ginormous time-suck on your life.<BR/><BR/>Nevertheless, I sometimes feel like new games don't dare to challenge players like they used to. Companies want their games to appeal to a wide range of people, which is understandable from a business perspective, but they're giving the shaft to the most talented gamers who will get bored and turn it off before they even finish the tutorial level. And sadly, the truly challenging games that kick you in the balls without thinking twice about it get caned in the reviews! I think it is a great injustice that games like PS2's Shinobi, Contra Shattered Soldier, and Gradius V all received their fair share of negative reviews primarily because the reviewers were just bitter over the stinging, throbbing, tear-squirting, ass whooping they received. <BR/><BR/>The world of videogames is big enough now though, that there is room for everything, so I can't complain too much (I love the variety anyway). As long as companies still throw a few bones to us old-school gaming dogs like XS Games' superb gameplay focused "The Red Star", I'll be happy.<BR/><BR/>For a similar and incredibly funny read, I suggest checking out Maddox's homage to Contra III:<BR/><BR/>http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=contra3_ownsJThttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16467964766151573064noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3967694277763110629.post-24284991154086727112009-02-23T21:57:00.000-08:002009-02-23T21:57:00.000-08:00csecrist:Ah, a kindred spirit to join me in hearke...csecrist:<BR/><BR/>Ah, a kindred spirit to join me in hearkening back to the days where games were the enemy! How far we have strayed ;-)<BR/><BR/>I think you raise a great point in the unique skills games require in order to fully grasp their narratives. <BR/><BR/>Like learning how to read a novel critically or analyze the composition of a movie frame, learning to play a game is necessary to fully grasp the experience.<BR/><BR/>I often feel like I've lost my "edge" when it comes to hard games, as most just aren't as challenging as they were in the old days. Do you feel similarly?Scott Justerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11775296635863850847noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3967694277763110629.post-39699206152390852022009-02-23T12:37:00.000-08:002009-02-23T12:37:00.000-08:00When I was a NES playing, snot-nosed little kid, I...When I was a NES playing, snot-nosed little kid, I LOVED Battletoads. Yet, it was completely and utterly frustrating. I actually improved my throwing arm better with this game better than I ever did playing baseball because I had thrown my controller so many times that I actually got to a point where I could hit the power point from across the room with my flying joystick as I dramatically exited the room in a scree of white noise from channel 3.<BR/><BR/>I think videogames are a unique form of story telling because they require that you exhibit a skill to complete the narrative. That combination of skill with storyline is part of what makes them so addictive and enjoyable. I remember when I finally beat Battletoads I was... a... GOD! I wished I had recorded my triumph because my friends would never believe that I actually beat that damn game because it was notoriously hard. So, what I believe makes games both so enjoyable and so utterly frustrating is that they tease you with a story of your rise to power and conquest, but they throw innumerable obstacles in your way on the road to victory. And if they break without cheating... in a way where you can see that you really lost do to your own failings in the skill of the gameplay, then you are going to enjoy the hell out of that game and spend some money on new controllers after you snap some in half.JThttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16467964766151573064noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3967694277763110629.post-89774879661944011152009-02-17T09:52:00.000-08:002009-02-17T09:52:00.000-08:00@Scott - I have played Eternal Darkness though I n...@Scott - I have played <I>Eternal Darkness</I> though I never got to finish it (only rented it :( ) and can't really remember it now. It has been on the list of games I want to go back to for ages though so hopefully one day I do. I can understand why you thought of it after reading my "Wire" comments and that's certainly something interesting as I never thought of <I>Eternal Darkness</I> like that before. <BR/><BR/>I agree that it would be nice to see some developers try new things with a bigger ensemble of characters but I guess it is just far too much of a risk to take? That said, <I>Far Cry 2</I> just popped into my mind so I wonder if that is a start? I don't know, I am still yet to play it.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00626684107210848128noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3967694277763110629.post-13968075282912756052009-02-16T11:11:00.000-08:002009-02-16T11:11:00.000-08:00Hi Steven:Where would we be without your tangents?...Hi Steven:<BR/><BR/>Where would we be without your tangents? ;-)<BR/><BR/>Have you played Eternal Darkness? It is a game that had a huge cast of characters, some of which didn't make it through the whole story, some of which interacted with the others in surprising ways. It's the closest thing I can think of in regards to your "Wire" analogy. It was hugely ambitious and I wish more developers would try big, ensemble-cast style games.Scott Justerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11775296635863850847noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3967694277763110629.post-10475707682555697522009-02-10T10:04:00.000-08:002009-02-10T10:04:00.000-08:00To go on perhaps a slight tangent here, lately I h...To go on perhaps a slight tangent here, lately I have wondered why developers insist on having the possibility of the player dying while playing, especially in games that are trying to advance the medium by having involving stories. BioShock would be one of these games, I'd argue, but my point is that if the supposed importance of the game is to tell a compelling narrative that engages our imagination then why must challenge and the resulting death still exist in the game? I realise that the medium has been built on these traits (if you will) and so moving away from it is hard, but surely there are ways to tell these in-depth stories without having roadblocks for us to hit along the way?<BR/><BR/>I guess in a way, <I>Heavy Rain</I> could be an upcoming example of maybe heading down the path that I'm trying to refer to. As far as I know, if you die in that game the events and story continue on. That is one way to deal with death without having the player jump over hurdles to reach the end of the story, but is it the only way?<BR/><BR/>And now I've lost my train of thought and point, so take this as mindless rambling if you want. Another thing that comes to mind though is TV show <I>The Wire</I> and how it told the story of the city of Baltimore over the course of its five seasons. I mean sure, we had main characters that helped the story along and at first it looked like it was about them rather than the city, but as the show progressed on the viewers came to realise that it wasn't about the characters of the show necessarily, but how their parts (drug dealers, cops, politics, school children and etc) of the city all combined to tell the overall story of the show.<BR/><BR/>Ever since seeing that show in its entirety, I've been trying to figure out how a game could do the same sort of thing and tell a story without necessarily having some importance on challenge, death and the other roadblocks we are accustomed to as gamers.<BR/><BR/>Does that even make sense? I apologise if it didn't and also for it being a major tangent, rather than a slight one. You guys are used to it by now though I'm sure of it. ;)Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00626684107210848128noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3967694277763110629.post-17833046060696199712009-02-08T15:34:00.000-08:002009-02-08T15:34:00.000-08:00Joe:I think you are correct to point out the multi...Joe:<BR/><BR/>I think you are correct to point out the multitude of continuity breaks to be found in games. I'm interested in finding examples of how people have tried to smooth these breaks. It seems like a monumentally difficult task, as it is impossible to control for the kind of inclinations and assumptions that a player brings to the game. Without mind-reading, it is hard to resolve dissonance.<BR/><BR/>mtvernon: I still haven't played Far Cry 2, but it's generating so much discussion that I'll definitely get to it soon. Do you have any other favorite "story making" games?<BR/><BR/>Jonathan: I agree that game developers probably want players to feel frustration in some circumstances, but it's a difficult line to walk. <BR/><BR/>First, they have to make sure the game challenges the player but doesn't turn them off completely. Second, they have to make sure that if they are telling a explicit narrative akin to a film or novel, the failure isn't discordant with the narrative tone.<BR/><BR/>Overall, I think BioShock did adequately with that second requirement, but at times I still felt that the game was trying to be both an unbroken narrative and a purely ludic shooter at the same time. I don't envy having to try to find this balance, and I'm excited to see what direction they go with the next BioShock game.<BR/><BR/>Jorge: The old "remember to tend to bodily functions" game over screen, eh? Sadly, I've experienced the utility of such a function all to often.Scott Justerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11775296635863850847noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3967694277763110629.post-15341870997648419512009-02-08T14:58:00.000-08:002009-02-08T14:58:00.000-08:00Just off the top of my head, maybe some form of di...Just off the top of my head, maybe some form of dissonance improves the experience overall as it might give the player a good place to stop, turn off the console, and go eat dinner. Maybe the break from game to reality would be more counterproductive as far as the narrative goes than including chapters or even game-over screens. Just an idea.Jorge Alborhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04857765716032886965noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3967694277763110629.post-47862052664621954492009-02-07T10:09:00.000-08:002009-02-07T10:09:00.000-08:00I think some games implicitly require failure to r...I think some games implicitly require failure to reach satisfying narrative conclusions, even though deaths usually interrupt the narrative flow. In the final scenes of an action film, the hero is usually wounded near-fatally, and he needs to suffer to make his ultimate triumph meaningful. Near-death in video games is insignificant; the character will find a health pack or automatically heal between levels. To feel like you've overcome a difficult adversary, especially at the conclusion of the game, you'll probably have to die a few times. Some newer games use the half-hour boss battle to create that sense of accomplishment, but I think more games will continue to kill the player's character to show them how much is at stake when fighting a boss.<BR/><BR/>While player-character deaths generally require restarting the battle, interfering with the uniformity of the narrative, these deaths still have an emotional and dramatic role in the game's overall narrative.Jonathan Millshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07953046901763727642noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3967694277763110629.post-20314286292052903612009-02-07T09:38:00.000-08:002009-02-07T09:38:00.000-08:00Oops -- meant to say that creating a story or them...Oops -- meant to say that creating a story or theme in PixelJunk Eden didn't lessen frustration in MY case.<BR/><BR/>I also meant to mention Steve Gaynor's excellent post, "Storymaking," which inspired my comment. Check it out at http://fullbright.blogspot.com/2009/01/storymaking.html.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3967694277763110629.post-69248656656196797062009-02-07T09:34:00.000-08:002009-02-07T09:34:00.000-08:00"BioShock is a monument to story telling in games,..."BioShock is a monument to story telling in games, or more precisely, a monument to explicit, linear-narrative storytelling. ... The dilapidated city structures are beautiful landmarks along a road that inexorably led me to the game's conclusion. BioShock is a game with a clear message and an explicit story, and this is why my failures frustrated me."<BR/><BR/>Your above description of BioShock beautifully captures how certain first-person shooters do their best to PROPEL players through a given narrative. These games do story<I>telling</I> quite well. On the other (and strangely smaller) side of the coin are first-person shooters concerned with story<I>making</I>, such as Far Cry 2. Titles like this are almost inherently less frustrating, as they offer a modicum of freedom and encourage a kind of experimentation where the only blame for failure lies in your personal approach.<BR/><BR/>While I wouldn't really say that PixelJunk Eden is a story<I>making</I> type of game, it's abstract enough to facilitate players' various interpretations. This can certainly help lessen frustration, but it didn't in case. I'm psyched to try playing again now that it's been patched.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3967694277763110629.post-30481514259538112922009-02-07T06:49:00.000-08:002009-02-07T06:49:00.000-08:00I find it useful to envision not a chasm between t...I find it useful to envision not a chasm between two opposites, but a break in continuity in the player's constructed narrative -- in other words, I'm not sure a gameplay-plot break is much different than a gameplay-art break or a plot-music break or a plot-characterization break. <BR/><BR/>I think it's easy to assign special case status to "gameplay" and "story", but really it seems like a particular instance of a broader problem, i.e. the interruption of the story the player is accumulating (whether it's from sounds, pictures, or words) with a contradictory fact. Cognitive dissonance is the mind-killer!Joe Osbornhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13745963819679671079noreply@blogger.com